A poetry book in Italian entitled ‘Grovigli’ by dr Tomasz Snarski of the Faculty of Law and Administration of the UG was published in the spring by the Cacucci Editore publishing house from Bari. We talk about Polish-Italian poetic cooperation with Roberto M. Polce, author of the translation of the volume. We ask Dr Tomasz Snarski, the poet himself, about his fascination and relationship with Italy.
Julia Bereszczyńska: - You undertook the translation of a poetry book by Tomasz Snarski into Italian. The collection, published in Italy under the title ‘Grovigli’, contains mainly poems from the volume ‘Żmuty’, as well as previously unpublished works. You admitted that it cost you considerable effort. What was the greatest challenge during this work?
Roberto M. Polce: - I have many years of experience in translating from Polish into Italian. Many years ago, I understood the greatness of Tadeusz Borowski's literary and human testimony and offered to translate his camp stories to the publisher Il Quadrante of Turin, which actually published this important writer in Italy for the first time in 1988. Later on, I translated other Polish books, including ‘Holocaust’ by Piotr Szewc, ‘On God and Man. Conversations' by Zygmunt Bauman and Stanisław Obirk, then a new edition of ‘Farewell to Maria’ and ‘Stone World’ by Tadeusz Borowski. As you can guess, these texts are not at all easy to translate. However, the translation of Tomasz Snarski's poems was equally, if not more, difficult. And not only because of the specificity of the poetic form itself, which, as we all know, is by nature elusive, ‘iridescent’, multifaceted, and open to various interpretations, but also and above all because of the complexity of Tomasz Snarski's poetic output, in which, just beneath the surface, there flow vivid, bubbling veins, currents that refer or only whisper references to philosophical themes, to mythology, to sacred writings. And herein lies the greatest difficulty and challenge for the translator: to be able to convey all this complexity without losing anything or as little as possible of the richness of the original text.
- Was undertaking the translation of Tomasz Snarski's poetry an obvious or rather difficult decision?
- I took the decision to translate Tomasz Snarski's poems in one second, literally on the spur of the moment, as if it was the most natural thing in the world. The case was as follows: On December 9, 2022, a symposium on human rights was held in Gdańsk, at the headquarters of the Pomeranian Bar Association, where I was asked to translate the speech of the Italian guest, Professor Antonio Incampo from Aldo Moro University in Bari, and the ensuing debate. During a small reception at the end of the evening, the organiser and moderator of the meeting - lawyer Tomasz Snarski - approached me and asked if I would be willing to translate a small poetry book into Italian. ‘Why not?’ - I replied without a second thought. I had already translated poems from English, Russian and Polish (including Wislawa Szymborska and Jan Twardowski). So I immediately accepted the challenge with enthusiasm, happy to return to translating my beloved poetry. I will only admit that I experienced a moment of embarrassment when Tomasz Snarski told me that the poems to be translated were his. I must admit that at first, I succumbed to the stereotype, that is, I doubted whether real poetry could come from the pen of a lawyer. However, since I had just declared that I was willing and ready to take on the task, I could no longer withdraw without losing face. However, as soon as I opened the slim book entitled ‘Żmuty’ (‘Muddles’) and quickly read the first poem of this collection, I immediately realised that I had in my hands the work of a poet of the highest value.
- Is translating poetry from Polish into Italian a difficult task in terms of technique? The Italian language, for example, seems to be much more sonorous, melodious. In the work of a translator, does this make a big difference?
- Any translation of poetic texts from one language into another is not an easy task. However, the fact that Italian in general, compared to Polish, is more musical and melodious, in the case of Tomasz Snarski's poems, in my opinion, is of little significance. And this is for two reasons. Firstly, because in Tomasz Snarski's, the Polish language consists of words that the poet carefully selects and combines - which naturally have a very harmonious sound and rhythm in them. And secondly, because in his poetry there is a kind of a broad and slow breath of everyday life, a reflective flow of philosophical conversations, but on everyday, earthly topics. Tomasz seems to deliberately avoid melodiousness and musicality, and rhyming, per se. And I, in the course of the translation, tried very hard to respect this linguistic aspect of Tomasz Snarski's creative compositions, although I must admit that at one or two points in the translation, I missed a few rhymes. However, I had no other choice, and I only hope that Tomasz will not notice it!
- Do you see any differences or similarities in the poetry of contemporary Polish and Italian authors?
- More differences than similarities. The most important difference, in my opinion, is the use of a sometimes over-sophisticated, puffed-up, outdated literary language in most Italian poetry, which makes it difficult for a wider audience to enjoy the work of many poets. Polish poetry, on the contrary, generally copes very well with complex themes in simple, everyday language that everyone can understand. It seems to me that it was precisely this phenomenon that Wislawa Szymborska expressed so wonderfully in her poem ‘Under One Star’ with the words: ‘Don't hold it against me, speech, that I borrow pathetic words,/and then struggle to make them seem light.’ And in my opinion, it is no coincidence that it is Szymborska who enjoys ever-growing popularity in Italy, not only among the intelligentsia but also among the young crowd.
- You are a journalist, an author of guides to Poland, and a translator; you also guide Italian tours of Tricity. You have an episode connected with the University of Gdańsk in your activities as well. Please tell us about it.
- I would not call what I do at the University of Gdańsk an episode, where I have been teaching for several years at the Postgraduate Italian Studies programme, directed by dr hab. Dorota Karwacka-Pastor, prof. UG. In these studies, which are nota bene unique in Poland, I conduct classes on Italian grammar for advanced students, as well as classes on selected topics related to the culture of contemporary Italy in the broadest sense of the word. During these meetings, I introduce students to the mentality, customs, mores, political thinking, way of communicating, etc. of contemporary Italians. These are very enjoyable classes, supported by concrete examples such as the language of gestures, the differences in the behaviour of Italians and the rest of Europe, etc. I also teach lessons on post-war Italian literature, and among several authors I introduce, for example, the post-war Italian poet Alda Merini. Alda Merini is an excellent example of the new trend of Italian poetry, which no longer feels the need to use high-flown, old-fashioned and rhetorical language to give the impression or pretence of being serious and profound.
We also asked the author of ‘Grovigli’, dr Tomasz Snarski, about his latest book of poetry and his relationship with Italy.
Julia Bereszczynska: - Some time ago, another translation of your poetry book was published, this time into Italian. Please tell us what the ‘Grovigli’ of the title are.
Dr Tomasz Snarski: - I am very pleased to see the publication of my poems in Italian. The volume ‘Grovigli’ contains poems from the volume entitled ‘Żmuty’, published in Vilnius in 2021, but also some brand new, previously unpublished works, written during my travels to Italy and taking up, shall we say, Italian themes in various contexts and references. I think translating my poems was a big challenge for a translator. Because, for example, how do you translate the almost unknown – even in Poland - word ‘żmuty’ (muddles, tangles)? Grovigli means entanglements, but it is also a very poetic, polysemic word that refers to symbolism. After all, what are weaves or tangles in our lives? In the lives of individuals and societies, in human history and humanity in general? It turns out that there are a great many of them; we try to resolve them, but they are still intertwined with each other in an entanglement that offers the promise of clarity, of finding answers, of untangling, but which keeps coming back and in a sense is a feature of our lives. Free will, the choices we make (do we really make them?), relationships, past experiences and their impact on the now and the future. These are all entanglements that have universal significance, they are a problem, a puzzle, and a challenge, whether for a Pole, a Lithuanian, or an Italian. Hence, I hope that the poems will be well received by the Italian reader. The volume ‘Grovigli’ has been published by the excellent publishing house Cacucci Editore of Bari, very well known and appreciated in Italy. We are planning author meetings around the book in the summer and autumn. My friends from Italy are already sending me photos of the book and sharing their impressions of the reading. They often write to me that they are happy to finally be able to read my work in Italian.
- How did it come about that you decided to publish a translation of your poetry in Italian, of all languages?
- I must mention here my close ties with Bari and southern Italy in general. It is worth highlighting my friendship and collaboration with Proffessor Antonio Incampo, a philosopher of law from Aldo Moro University in Bari. It was Professor Incampo who suggested translating my poems into Italian. I am happy that we collaborate on various scientific projects. I am a member of the Scientific Council of the Italian scientific journal L'irccocervo, dealing with the theory and philosophy of law and legal doctrines. This year, also as part of my research commitment on the relationship between mercy and criminal law, I am also co-editor of a volume of this journal dedicated to the problems of criminal punishment, human rights and mercy, which will be published in the second half of this year. Last year, I was able to have a very fruitful scientific consultation at Aldo Moro University in Bari. It is worth adding that prof. Antonio Incampo has for many years been a friend and collaborator of dr. hab. Wojciech Żełaniec, prof. UG from the Institute of Philosophy at the University of Gdańsk, who was the supervisor of my Master's thesis during my philosophy studies. When one day during a seminar I noticed a poster advertising a scientific symposium in Bari in prof. Żełaniec's office, I did not hesitate to ask for details. And so, through my philosophical studies, I also arrived at the philosophy of law in Italy.
- But your fascination with Italy does not seem to have an exclusively scientific background?
- Of course not! I would also like to mention my friend Vito Andrea Racanelli, who is currently a doctoral student at the Technical University of Bari, preparing a dissertation on automation and robotics (I am probably very imprecise here). We have been friends for years; we met on the occasion of my first-ever trip to Italy. Vito wanted to practise his English, while I was keen to meet local people. When Vito revealed that he was planning a trip to Warsaw, I managed to convince him to modify his plans and come to Gdańsk. And so a bond was formed, which also includes our closer and more distant friends, both from Italy and Poland. You could even say that a Polish-Italian group of friends has been formed in Puglia, which numbers more than a dozen people. I, in turn, go to Puglia every summer, I cannot imagine a vacation without at least a few days of ‘Italian holidays’.
Puglia and Basilicata are beautiful regions of Italy. I love southern Italy very much and, to be honest, I treat it as my ‘third homeland’, right after Poland and Lithuania of course. We have so much in common in terms of values or culture. But the greatest treasure is always the people. It is thanks to people like Antonio Incampo or Vito Andrea Racanelli, who have shown and show me amazing places every year, that I have fallen in love with southern Italy. I love interacting with Italian culture, taking in the energy and friendliness of the Italians. Of course, the celebration of delicious cuisine, the communal nature of being together, is also an important aspect. I recommend to everyone beautiful cities and towns such as Bari, Sannicandro di Bari, Matera, Trani, Polignano a Mare, Monopoli, Santa Maria di Leuca, Altamura,, Taranto. I could go on and on. In each of them, there is much to discover, in each of them you can find specific traditions and customs and, above all, in each of them live wonderful people.
- How did the paths of you and Roberto M. Polce, the translator of your poetry, converge?
- Prof. Antonio Incampo, whom I mentioned earlier, was a guest of the Pomeranian Bar Association in 2022 on the occasion of the annual International Human Rights Day. At that time, he gave an excellent lecture on the philosophical aspects of human rights. This meeting was translated into Polish by Roberto M. Polce. And so, one could say, scientific and social activity gave birth to a joint literary project. I am impressed by the effort and enormity of the work involved in translating my poems and carried out by Roberto M. Polce. Some people say that translation is in fact the re-creation of an already written work, that one has to find in the translation what is most essential. I have no doubt that Roberto has succeeded in this. We met, he asked me about a lot of details, contexts, interpretations. I had the impression that I was working not only with a translator but also with a poet in the best sense of the word. And that is the most important thing! Somewhat jokingly, I can even say that some translations are better than the original. Also, I encourage you to read ‘Żmuty’, and of course ‘Grovigli’! Because, in the end, each of us has some kind of ‘żmuty’, some muddles, tangles that we would like to untangle, but which perhaps cannot be resolved. Well, unless through poetry.