Magdalena Nieczuja-Goniszewska: - You were the director of the Institute of Scandinavian and Fennist Studies at the UG for many years, but you became involved with this unit much earlier?

Dr hab. Maria Sibińska, prof. UG: - Yes, in 1982 I started my studies in the Department of Scandinavian Studies at the then Faculty of Humanities. At that time, there was already, apart from Swedish, a second pathway - Norwegian - and I was qualified for it. When I started my studies, it was the foreign language in the entrance exam that determined my linguistic path. In my year group, those who took German were assigned to the Swedish group and those who took English were assigned to the Norwegian group.

- Why did you choose this course of study? The year 82 was a time of martial law, which was not conducive to maintaining close relations with Sweden or Norway.

- In fact, despite the proximity, relations with the Scandinavian countries were limited, but still less so than with other Western countries. Already in the middle of high school, I knew that I wanted to apply for Scandinavian studies. It was a spontaneous but conscious choice. I had to be well prepared and pass a foreign language exam. In my case, it was an exam in English, and the requirements were the same as for English philology. Places were not plentiful, not least because Scandinavian studies started every other year at that time.

- One of the graduates of this course, Mr Jacek Gdański, said in an interview that Scandinavian studies were very intimate. Is this how you perceived it?

- That's right, the intake was once every two years. There were no more than 20 of us in our year, divided into 2 language tracks. Indeed, everyone knew each other well. It wasn't until the 1990s that the programme was expanded, the Danish pathway appeared, more students started to be accepted and the studies were launched every year.

- I understand that your studies met your expectations to such an extent that you decided to stay in Scandinavian studies as a university teacher?

- I perceived the choice as a very good one. My studies did not disappoint me, as they not only did not exhaust my interest in the Scandinavian countries but opened up further possibilities. In my opinion, this course prepared me for a flexible career and a broader view of the world.

- Didn't you feel like working in the so-called business world? By the time you had finished your studies, which were five years long at the time, Poland was opening up to the West and other opportunities were appearing.

- No. I was not interested in that professional world and its dynamics. My choice of the direction I mentioned was motivated by my interest in literature, and it turned out to be the right one, because actually during my studies I already felt that I was interested in an academic career. This place provided opportunities to work on what fascinated me the most.

- You spoke of a spontaneous but conscious choice of your major. Was there something about Scandinavia itself, when you went there for the first time, that reassured you that this was what you wanted to do? What was your impression of your first personal experience of the culture, landscape and nature there?

- I was definitely captivated by the landscapes. In my second year at university, I went to Sweden on a one-week exchange programme. It was my first stay abroad. A few months later I was going to the People's University in Karasjok, Norway. I travelled by train for a long time, all the way across Sweden. There is a moment when the train turns from Sweden to Norway. It's sort of an old railway line connecting the mines in Kiruna to the port of Narvik. The landscape there is more striking, dramatic, evocative. Then in Narvik, I went to the Grom monument, because of course, the friendly Norwegian family who picked me up at the station took me there straight away. And it was an extraordinary, tangible encounter with history. Everything together created a magical atmosphere. The next day, a further bus journey towards Finnmark, combined with ferry crossings, awaited me. I was enchanted by nature - it's hard to say that this was a factor, after all, many things happened before I became a Norwegian philologist, but it was certainly my first contact with Norway that made a big impression on me. On top of that, I arrived there in August, and a few days later it was snowing - and I thought I was at the end of the world.

- Many of us seem to think of Norway that way...

- I, despite everything, keep saying that I don't want to look at Norway as an ‘exotic’ country. However, I remember having labels for everything when I returned from my first stay. Now, the more I know on the subject, the more difficult it is for me to make a clear statement about Norway.

- When I was preparing for our meeting, I asked your colleagues about the institute and about working with you. My interlocutors were unanimous in saying that the institute has flourished during your time as director. Please, tell me what changes have taken place in Scandinavian Studies during your time as a director.

- I am pleased that there are such voices. I have held my position since 2014. First, I was head of the Department of Scandinavian Studies, and then our unit was given the status of an institute. If we look at this period, first of all, more languages have been added: a two-level Finnish and a lectureship in Icelandic. The number of full-time employees has basically not changed. However, there are now more permanent staff, because we have split some posts into halves. But this is not so much due to me, but simply the way the university has been allowing work organisation for some time. The changes to the programme, including the new languages, were of course worked out by the teams. These are not tasks that can be done by one person. I admit that I was personally involved in the process of creating the Icelandic language course as an additional subject for the master's degree programme, but again, the idea was conceived in a group, we managed to hire a very competent teacher, and thanks to that, the Icelandic language offer has been strengthened. So I think that the fact that the language offering has increased and more people are working with us is not my fault, but the result of the team's work and taking advantage of the opportunities provided by the university.

- Scandinavian studies is always one of the most popular subjects among university applicants. What do you think is the reason for this?

- Scandinavian studies allow young people to quickly find their feet in the labour market. Knowledge of Scandinavian languages and realities, which is a good basis in intercultural communication, is still a very important asset in the eyes of many employers, especially in Pomerania. In addition, translation and language teaching are also an attractive area available to Scandinavian specialists even during their studies. I am convinced that there are no unemployed people among our graduates. Besides, the choice of studies may be influenced by a general interest in Scandinavia, which has several reasons. One cannot underestimate the romantic aspects, i.e. interest in literature, landscape, climate. Besides that, a great number of people have personal contacts with Scandinavian countries, which is related to economic emigration. Candidates for studies often have family in Scandinavia, especially in Norway.

- It is not only students who are fascinated by Scandinavia. We all know Ibsen's and Stridndberg's dramas from school, Astrid Lingrend's children's novels, Tove Jansson's Mumin trolls series, Scandinavian crime novels - Camilla Läckberg's series, Jo Nesbo's series, Henning Mankell's novels, Stieg Larsson's novels, Fredrik Backman's novels - and I wonder what is so special about this literature that it is so popular?

- You mention very different authors: from Sweden, Norway, Finland, writing in different eras, addressing different readers, and reaching for different genres (e.g. Ibsen and Strindberg are brilliant playwrights). It is not easy to identify the common denominator of their work. Perhaps it is the thematisation of a peculiar tension between individualism and a sense of responsibility for the community, between the conviction that we have the right to be ourselves (whether we are a child, a housewife ‘at home with her husband’, a scientist discovering an inconvenient truth, an artist wandering around town) combined with the experience that belonging to a community is our necessity. For the heroes of the Old Scandinavian sagas, one of their primary duties was loyalty to the members of their family, and one of the most severe punishments was banishment. A man cast outside the bracket of the community had little chance of survival. But this is just one of the tropes.

As part of an Erasmus trip, I recently had a class in Scandinavian Studies in Budapest. The class was about the portrayal of the Vikings in literature and the students began to wonder why there was such an interest in the Vikings, was it the result of a general fascination with Scandinavia? I think there is a lot of truth in this, especially in the case of thriller and crime literature. In this case, the effect of the uncanny is still at work, we are attracted to the darkness resulting, among other things, from the specific climate, the landscapes. In addition, the formula that is commonly referred to as Scandinavian crime fiction provides for a great deal of social criticism. Of course, there is a crime mystery that drives the action, because that is what the convention demands. But we also find a look at welfare society from a critical perspective, interesting portraits of the people caught up in the investigation. Of course, at a certain point, a stereotype of expectations arises about how a policeman investigating in a Scandinavian detective story should be constructed, how many problems he should have with himself and his surroundings, and what these problems should consist of. But still, it is the ambiguous characters, the interestingly drawn social background, the peripherality of the presented world, that I think is what attracts the reader to Nordic crime novels. And, of course, the writing talent of the specific authors should not be forgotten.

- Or do we find pleasure in the fact that this perfect, at first sight, Scandinavian world is not so perfect after all?

- Yes, the principle of contrast works here. The reader certainly feels the thrill of discovering what is disturbing in a seemingly ordered reality. We can feel the restlessness bubbling underneath, and we enjoy reading literature that tries to name the source of this restlessness.

- The interest in Viking culture that you mentioned was probably also sparked by the series that the big TV series platforms showed a few years ago. I think some people were surprised to discover that the story was so European. The Vikings were not just looters coming from the far North, but also a community connected to the history of England and France, with influence in Russia.

-The series has rekindled interest in the ambiguous culture of the Vikings. Coupled with a general interest in the Middle Ages. The Middle Ages as an era is still a fascinating period of history. Umberto Eco wrote such an essay on the Middle Ages entitled ‘Dreaming of the Middle Ages.’ in which the era is repositioned as a pretext for philological and psychological considerations, which shows the possibilities of continually drawing inspiration from the Middle Ages. So I think that this fascination with the beginnings of our modern age also projects an interest in the Vikings. Their story, combining violence, lust for power and wealth with the passion of explorers and the talent of merchants, fits into the spectrum of our ideas about the origins of European culture and history.

- It is a pity that the mythological Kalevala is less well known. Probably no less fascinating.

- In Scandinavian studies, the Kalevala is one of the first readings, it is read in a course on Finnish literature; in fact, reading it provides a good opportunity to swallow the bug of fascination with Nordicism.

- But coming back to your research - why did you become interested in Sámi culture?

- During my studies, I went on the scholarship I mentioned above to the Folk University in Karasjok. This village on the Norwegian-Finnish border is a centre of Sámi culture. Then, with little knowledge of Scandinavia, I was thrown into this very colourful environment, a place where Norwegian culture came into contact with the Sámi element, which was further overlaid with Finnish influences. I started reading, looking for information about the Sámi, and it was all the more fascinating because at the time, in the 1980s, Sámi reactions to the long-standing processes of denigration practised by the authorities in the Nordic countries were gaining momentum. Some of the writers who felt themselves to be Sámi wrote in Scandinavian languages because they had not mastered their native language enough to create in it. As a result of assimilation and deprivation, only some people who feel Sámi can still speak Sámi. On the one hand, the language imposed by the authorities was used, but on the other hand, Sámi literature created in Scandinavian languages reached a wider audience. It was able to reach a non-Sámi reader with a Sámi point of view. Later, while working on my doctoral dissertation on North Norwegian poetry, I took into account, among other things, the texts of Ailo Gaup, a Sámi poet who was looking for ways to return to his roots, lost as a result of the processes of deprivation. He wrote in Norwegian and sought ways back by writing in the colonist language.

- I have read that the Sámi have nine languages. Is the reason for this linguistic stratification the fact that they were pastoral, wandering people?

- This was also due to the terrain and distances, which meant that contact between the different communities was not obvious. If we look at the linguistic map of the Sámi, the Sámi languages that are spoken most in the south are linguistically distant from those spoken in the northeast. The distance is so important that communication between speakers of these varieties of Sámi requires training. It is as if we are trying to talk to a user of Bulgarian, whom we supposedly understand, but we ask them to speak very slowly. That is, we will somehow communicate, but it will not be a casual conversation. In addition, the Sámi languages are written using two alphabets - in that part of Sápmi, the Sámi Country, which lies within the Nordic countries, the Latin alphabet is used, while the Russian Sámi use the Cyrillic alphabet.

- So, do the Sámi have their own official language?

- There are several Sámi languages acting locally, in selected Nordic municipalities, as the official language. However, it may venture to say that the most universal language is North Sámi, which has the largest number of speakers. They live in Norway as well as in Sweden and Finland. Sources give different numbers, based on surveys and declarations, fluently defining the question of language mastery. The most commonly cited figure is 25,000 speakers of Northern Sámi, meaning. that approximately 90 per cent of Sámi speakers speak this variety of the language. Most of them live in Norway. The lule variety is spoken by about 2,000 people, most of whom live in Sweden, while about 600 speakers of South Sámi, 300 of whom live in Norway and the rest in Sweden. About 300 people speak Skolte, which is used in Finland and Russia, and a similar number speak Enare in Finland. However, none of the Sámi languages can survive without institutional support.

- And what is the linguistic situation when it comes to Sámi living in Russia?

- Approximately 2,000 Sámi live on the Kola Peninsula, and the village of Lovozero is the centre of Eastern Sámi culture. Some of them still cultivate the knowledge of their native language. In the eastern group of Sámi languages, Kildin is the most widespread What is true is that it does not have the same status as the Sámi languages in the Scandinavian countries, but there are radio programmes in Kildin, the local press sometimes publishes Sámi-language texts. Sámi poetry is also produced, children's books are published, including a translation into Kildin of the three Pippi stories by Astrid Lindgren.

- We talk about language, and yet Sámi is not only a language, but also a culture. The fact that it survived was not all that obvious - you spoke earlier about attempts to nationalise the Sámi.

- As I mentioned earlier, in modern Scandinavia the revival of Sámi culture occurred in the 1970s, breaking the centuries-old policy of deprivation and assimilation pursued by the Nordic states. And it began when the Norwegian authorities decided to build a dam on the Alta River, as a result of which some areas used by reindeer herders were to be flooded. This decision caused strong agitation and resistance, which consolidated the Sámi and led to their political and cultural revitalisation. Protests were held and demonstrations organised. Demonstrators, among others, travelled to Oslo, where they organised a hunger strike in front of the Norwegian parliament. The action actually ended in failure, as the dam was built. Years later, the authorities admitted that this was not a fully thought-out action. The Alta issue, on the other hand, proved to be a Sámi victory on a symbolic level. It contributed to the revival of Sámi culture, and caused the Sámi themselves to take an interest in their heritage. There has been a gradual rejection of attitudes of shame. For the generation that grew up in the 1950s, 1960s or 1970s, being Sámi was not something to be proud of; rather, one hid one's origins. In the wave of protests against the construction of the dam, there was a resurgence of the need to assert one's rights and to speak up for oneself with an increasingly loud voice. The conflict over the construction of the dam also contributed to changes in legislation in the Nordic countries and the passing of laws on Sámi parliaments. First in Norway, then in Sweden, then in Finland. All three Nordic countries have an institution called sámediggi in North Sámi and sametinget in Norwegian, the Sámi parliament.

It is an elected institution but has no legislative power. General elections for Sámi parliaments are held at the same time as elections for national parliaments. Among other things, Sámi parliaments deal with the distribution of state funds for Sámi culture, the coordination of language and heritage preservation activities, cooperation with ministries of key importance to Sámi issues (e.g. the Ministry of Education), cooperation with national parliaments.

It is worth recalling that many Sámi do not live in the northern fringes of the Nordic countries. It is assumed that, considering absolute numbers, the largest number of Norwegian Sámi live simply in Oslo. Tromsø, on the other hand, is the city with the largest number of registered Sámi parliamentary voters in Norway. There are, of course, towns and cities in the north where the Sámi are in the percentage majority, including those associated with the traditional economy, such as reindeer husbandry. On the other hand, a sizable proportion of the Sámi population simply lives in towns. On the one hand, the Sámi are part of modern Nordic societies, which encourages mobility especially among the young. On the other hand, the dispersal of traditional Sámi communities has a historical background. The Sámi were relocated by top-down decisions of the authorities, as was done, for example, in Sweden. It is also an effect of the Second World War and the migrations forced by warfare. For example, in the north of Norway, where the retreating army had a scorched earth policy, the population, including the Sámi, had to be evacuated. Some of the Sámi settled permanently in new places and completely cut themselves off from their roots. Their children, who were born after the war, had no idea of their origins. For their parents, Samoanness was a burden, a ballast, something they wanted to spare their children. It was only as adults that they realised they had cousins or grandparents who spoke Sámi. In recent years, there have been both literary and cinematic narratives addressing this issue. While now being Sámi is more of a source of pride when dealing with other fellow citizens, it used to be a source of humiliation.

- Parliament, the ‘official’ language, literature and film. Are there still any forms of expression of identity by the Sámi?

- Theatre. However, theatre is not a typical mode of expression in the Sámi tradition. Theatre in this culture was born during the political turbulence of the late 1970s and early 1980s as an attempt to create an additional forum for self-expression. Semi-amateur theatre companies began to emerge, in which Sámi artists were joined by theatre makers from all over Scandinavia and beyond. The semi-amateur ventures have evolved gradually. There are now two major Sámi theatre institutions, one in Sweden and the other in Norway. The latter, the Sámi theatre from Kautokeino, has national stage status. The theatre from Kautokeino tours Norway with some of its productions, reaching as far as Oslo. Sometimes it goes further afield. In 2008, it arrived in Gdańsk. From being a niche culture of interest to ethnographers, Sámi culture has become an integral and invigorating part of the culture of Norway, Sweden and Finland. At one time, Piotr Chołodziński, a theatre director of Polish origin who has lived and worked in Norway for many years, collaborated with the theatre from Kautokeino.

- What has remained traditional in the Scandinavian Sámi community?

- Some of the Sámi, about 10 per cent, still live in the North and herd reindeer, in more commercialised herds, subject to appropriate regulations. Without restrictions, herds would grow to a size that threatens sustainability. On the other hand, herds now need to be large if breeding is to be profitable, which has forced some families for whom reindeer have been a source of livelihood for generations to give up breeding. The way the herd is cared for is changing. Breeding is more mechanised, although still associated with herd migration twice a year. To a lesser extent, the whole family is involved. Very often one of the parents, has another permanent, ‘stationary’ job. She joins the shepherds at key moments. Similarly, children only help out with the flock during school holidays and vacation.

Considering the sphere of art, the yojk is still a living tradition. The yojk is one of the oldest forms of folk music in Europe. It is an ancient form, usually based on short formulas and special techniques of voice use. There are some epic yojk, but most often the text is limited to a few words and the whole message comes from an evocative melody, intelligible to a native audience. One variety of yojkas are so-called personal yojkas, which are a portrait of the person being yojked. They are created by someone close to them - a parent, a friend, a chosen heart. They are a portrait of the gifted person, a portrait, a kind of business card that changes, evolves with the owner's changing personality.

- Do you have your yojk or have you tried singing it?

- I do not have my yojk. I have taken yojk courses on the occasion of various festivals, but it was more for fun, to learn general principles and techniques. The yojk is not primarily a technique, but an expression of spiritual culture, it is something unlimited, without a clearly marked beginning and end. You can sing a person, an animal, a landscape. The yojk shortens the distance, because we can evoke loved ones who have gone into the afterlife or are somewhere far away in a geographical sense. We can yojk the landscape we miss. We can yo-yo joy, sadness, gratitude, but also a mosquito that annoys us, but which we associate with the warm season.

- So it's more what we feel, as we feel, not as we see?

- Yes. Jojk has something magical about it, a combination of magic and artistic creation. We create a person by singing and we don't sing ABOUT HER, but we sing HER. The yojk still functions in its traditional form, but it is also an inspiration for contemporary musicians, singers, poets, theatre people. Impulse. The most recognisable Sámi singer outside Scandinavia, Maria Boine, who has performed in Poland several times, draws on this very tradition.

- Maybe it's time to bring Sámi culture to the Nordic Focus Festival?

- I have not attended all the festivals, but as far as I know, Ilona Wiśniewska, who often draws on northern stories, has spoken about the Sámi. In 2018 there was a screening of the film Blood of the Sámi, which was very popular. So how about another screening of a Sámi film? Recently, a picture was produced in Norway with a plot set in the late 1970s and early 1980s, about the aforementioned conflict around the construction of the Alta River dam and the related protests of the Sámi people. The English title of the film is ‘Let the River Flow’ and the Norwegian title, referring to the demonstrators' slogans “La elva leve” - can be translated as “Let the river live”. The leading role in this film is played by Ella Marie Hætta Isaksen, a very well-known performer, yojker and singer involved in the fight for Sámi rights.

- In 2022, you received the Royal Order of Merit of His Majesty King Harald V of Norway, awarded to Norwegians as well as foreigners who have rendered above-average service to Norway. Many of your merits are listed in the justification, and I think it can be said in a nutshell that everything you do that has been recognised - including just expanding the offer at the Institute, researching Sámi life - can be described as the promotion of Scandinavian, Nordic culture. We are now talking about the fact that Scandinavia - its culture, literature in general in society and Scandinavian Studies as a major at the UG enjoy unflagging interest. So I ask perversely - then why promote them?

- Scandinavian culture is constantly developing, so our knowledge of it should be expanding. Because it is one thing to have our ideas about what it is like, and another thing to know what it really is like. It is constantly changing, redefining itself, so new narratives about it are needed. The yojk mentioned earlier is a good example. It is a mode of expression that has shamanistic roots but is still alive, shaping contemporary Sámi and more widely Scandinavian art.

Is promotion still needed? You invoked Ibsen, who many have heard of, while few really know him. We know that Ibsen is a great writer, a world-renowned playwright, and we may even remember a play by him from our school reading or a visit to the theatre, but we lack an in-depth discussion of his influence on contemporary drama and theatre. And there are still not enough translations that would also be accepted by the contemporary stage. Because a good literary translation is not necessarily a good stage translation.

Recently, the name of Jon Fosse has become fashionable because of the Nobel Prize for Literature awarded to him. Fosse is being staged in Poland, his texts are being translated, recently also his prose, but we still know very little about him.

It would be good for knowledge of Scandinavia to be more established, to be part of philological, or more broadly, humanist discourse. It is therefore about promoting in-depth knowledge combined with the discovery of new areas, about rejecting stereotypes.

- When you received the award, you said that you regarded it as an encouragement to continue your work. You retired this year and have been working with the PAS to a lesser extent. What are your immediate plans in this case?

- Certainly cooperation with the Institute for some time to come, with both parties redefining the scope of cooperation on an ongoing basis according to needs and possibilities. My non-university plans will not bring about any revolutionary changes in my life, but they are still crystallising and I would not like to talk about them at the moment.