In March, we celebrate two holidays in close proximity: Women's Day and Men's Day. On this occasion, we invited female scientists to join us in a conversation. For 20 years, they have been exploring the topic of gender and gender roles - and striving to make life better for all of us, despite our differences. We talked to prof. dr hab. Natasza Kosakowska-Berezecka, prof. UG and dr Magdalena Żadkowska about masculinity, femininity, and equal treatment.

Karolina Żuk-Wieczorkiewicz: - A lot has been happening recently in the context of gender equality. The University of Gdańsk was honoured with the ‘EU Award for Gender Equality Champions’ for gender equality leaders, awarded by the European Commission. An article was published a little earlier describing the results of research on sexism in 61 countries around the world. This reminded me of a conversation with prof. Tomasz Besta about his Men4Dem project. Among other things, we talked about the fact that many men are afraid of equality, even though equality can turn out to be something positive for them as well. Could you comment on this?

Natasza Kosakowska-Berezecka: - We have increasingly worrying data from many countries: not only from Poland, but also from Norway, for example. There is a certain divide in the views of young women and men, especially between the ages of 19 and 25. There is a clear ‘shift to the right’ among men and a ‘shift to the left’ among women. This gap between the views of women and men can be explained by the fact that boys perceive equality measures and all feminist issues as threatening. In our work (and we have done several projects on this topic) we try to answer the question of what can be done to make men and boys feel that gender equality is a common cause. It is extremely important - and at the same time very difficult.

- What is your work about?

NK-B: - We want to explore and show how both equality and inequality affect our lives. As part of the Toward the Gender Harmony project, in which we work together with Magda (and a team of over 200 people from 62 countries on 6 continents), we are investigating the consequences of inequality. One of its manifestations is the promotion of sexist behaviour. We have been able to show that in countries where the level of sexism is high, there is less democracy, more militarily oriented activities, more armed conflicts (both internal and external), lower GDP and lower economic productivity. We present scientific evidence that shows very clearly that inequality harms us all. Without equality, we will not be able to live in safe, happy countries.

- You mentioned worldview tendencies among young men. How does it look in other age groups?

Magdalena Żadkowska: - In the second of Natasza's projects - EQUAMAN, in which we prepared quantitative comparative research on boys in Norway and Poland, we reached out to experts for their opinions. We conducted two focus groups with specialists who are professionally involved in support and work a lot with men who are a bit older, i.e. those in the role of fathers or approaching retirement. One conclusion can be drawn from the analysis of these conversations: ‘it's always best to learn from your mistakes’. Many men realise that various things in their lives have not worked out: their relationships have broken down, they have little contact with their children, they feel a sense of failure and unfulfilment, they think that their lives could have turned out differently. These men recognise the moments in which they were absent; they can name what they did not do. Especially in group therapies, it is clear that these men were socialised into somewhat ‘outdated’ roles: the role of the strong, tough man who has to provide for the family financially - and they were not taught that security also means taking care of relationships, getting involved in parenting, taking time off when the children are sick, building relationships with their daughter, son and wife, giving their wife space to earn money, etc.

- So, this stereotypical division of roles turned out to be unfair to them?

MŻ: - I will answer with a digression: we have a project at the University of Gdańsk (I am in charge of it together with dr Magdalena Gajewska), in which we are researching young couples adopting a dog. In this project, it can be seen that in the case of activities for which there are no ‘gender-specific’ roles for women and men (i.e. dog sitter and dog owner), people can easily share responsibilities (e.g. going to the behaviourist, the vet, getting help, etc.). But going back to the men: they realise that someone has deceived them. They have been left alone with a very high bar, and in reality, nobody wants what they were trying to give to their family and children. It happens that they only start to get involved in relationships when the family is already falling apart. That is why the whole team and I feel like we have a mission: to prevent these young boys from making the same mistakes as their fathers' generation.

- What challenges does this bring?

NK-B: - A lot is happening in Poland right now: many workshops for men, including those on relationships - e.g. workshops that bring fathers and sons together. The challenge may be the fear of getting involved and investing time in relationships, because it could be misjudged, ‘because that's not how a man does it’. Some men prefer to see how it goes for others first before deciding to follow the same path themselves. Meanwhile, research shows that we lack pioneers, those courageous (here the stereotypically ‘masculine’ adjective fits very well) men who would say: ‘Hey, this is important, these are our families, our children, our communities. Let's get involved!’ The low availability of male roles in education up to the age of 16 (which is very feminised) is not helpful either. (it is very feminised).

- In the context of contemporary disturbing social trends, on the one hand, we observe a ‘turn’ to the right - the so-called traditional social roles with a clear division into male and female roles - on the other hand, we have equality activities. I can imagine that young men may feel lost or feel pressure or uncertainty about how to be a man in this world.

NK-B: - I can share some observations about my 10-year-old son. Girls at this age are increasingly ‘forward’, increasingly tough, they can handle themselves, they fight for themselves (and for their position). From my observations over more than 20 years, but also from various data in different countries, it can be seen that the feeling of discrimination among women is decreasing, while it is increasing among men. Men feel that their position is threatened. If you belong to a group that has been in a position of power for hundreds of years and enjoys an ‘assigned status’ (which appears as the ‘normal’ situation), you may feel that you are losing the game when things start to change. This is related to the belief in the world as a zero-sum game, in which if someone gains something, someone else loses it. So some men come to believe that ‘we need to make the world great and masculine again’.

MŻ: - We have a certain global trend in this: that men want back what they had as certain rights and privileges. At the same time, it is often about the not entirely defined and verbalised belief that ‘things used to be better’.

NK-B: - I would like to point out at this point that this phenomenon does not affect all men: we are talking about certain radical groups. For example, we are seeing that support for more right-wing and nationalist groups is increasingly being declared by teenage boys. On the other hand, we are also seeing some progressive tendencies, such as striving for a work-life balance. Men from Generation Z and Y – currently 20- and 30-year-olds – say that they want to look after children, they need a break, they don't want to work 100% to support a family, but they want to share responsibilities with their partner, etc.

So this trend of returning to the ‘good old male world’ is not that strong - but it is worth looking at. Without reflecting on how equality is discussed, portrayed and ‘sold’ in the media, we will not achieve this equality: because there will still be a sense that we are antagonising women and men.

MŻ: - There is also interesting data on the Generation X fathers involved. There are statements like, ‘Well, my dad did the washing and cooking, but we didn't talk about it.’ These activities were, so to speak, ‘confined to the home’ so as not to expose the father to stigmatisation from outside. In the EQUAMAN project, together with doctoral student Dorota Brzezińska, we carried out such ‘focus groups’ among young people - including young boys, who perfectly understand how strong and destructive the stereotype of a man can be, especially in the context of toxic masculinity (e.g. one that cannot cope with expressing emotions). The younger generation may be much more self-aware and may look for different solutions, but it is also a ‘delicate’ age in that much depends on who has an influence on them (and what kind of influence).

- In the context of equality, much is said about the centuries-long discrimination against women. But are there examples of the opposite? I am thinking, for example, of roles stereotypically considered feminine, such as caregiving roles.

NK-B: - The first Men's Congress was held recently. It brought together demands concerning areas in which men are discriminated against. For example, in the case of divorce, child care is usually granted to the mother. When we analyse the factors that could involve men more in equality measures, this is one of the arguments: that in the case of divorce, there will be greater equality in terms of child care.

In terms of work-life balance, we have research on the so-called ‘retaliation effect’ - punishment for non-stereotypical behaviour. For example, men who are modest or who want to stay at home with their children or look for a part-time job because they also want to fulfil themselves outside of work are perceived as less masculine, less competent and less worthy of promotion at work. A real-life example: a husband who took parental leave was given the nickname ‘Mother’.

- And what about equality at our university?

MŻ: - In the campaign for our Equality Plan, one of the good practices that was recognised was a campaign for father-researchers working at our university. I had the pleasure of conducting an interview with them (I should mention that the situation has changed over the past two years, with more and more fathers taking advantage of their right to parental or paternity leave). My interviewees shared their experiences of parenting older children. They pointed out an interesting fact: the fact that they spent a lot of time with their children at the beginning meant that their academic careers suffered greatly – because they didn't publish anything during that time. They also said that they felt invisible and had the impression that their employer did not recognise the role they played as parents (these roles were noticed and understood more in relation to their female colleagues). Therefore, it is very important to draw attention to this issue and make it visible in order to show how many fathers there are, what they face and what kind of support they need, because they may need something different from what women need. However, this issue is still not fully researched or discussed.

When preparing the Equality Plan, we learnt that you should first adopt the perspective of other people, and only then can you help them.

NK-B: - Information campaigns (for example, the information campaign we prepared for men who would like to take parental leave) are important because as parents, we often don't even know what rights we have as men and women, e.g. that the scope of parental leave in Poland is quite large and it is worth taking advantage of it. We are also planning mentoring activities that can be used by people employed at the University of Gdańsk.

MŻ: - We make sure that the mentors are both men and women, that men and women at different career levels volunteer, and that this mentoring can cover different areas of life: career, family life or personal life. Each of us needs something a little different at any given time, even though we have one thing in common: we work at a university.

What do you think would be worth taking care of at a systemic level? What could employers take care of? To what extent does institutional support help in implementing equality policies?

MŻ: - It is definitely necessary. Our experience in preparing gender equality plans - not only for the University of Gdańsk - has taught us that it has to be work at all levels and cannot be directed only at interested parties. It is important to involve the authorities who recognise equality policy as an important element in building the company's mission and image, and not just as a ‘side activity’ that is done only to be able to obtain EU funds. Then it doesn't work. The same goes for tokenism, i.e. competing to achieve certain numbers or indicators. It's an artificial fixing of the system. In the MINDtheGEPs project, we say: ‘You can't fix women, you have to fix the system’. Everything works in a certain context. And as long as this context promotes certain behaviours, it is no surprise that people choose those that are easier, more convenient or more beneficial at the moment. Our role as scientists is, among other things, to prove with our work and scientific facts that equality pays off and works. We implement it and change the institution.

- What does the research say?

NK-B: - ‘Equality trends were actually started in the business world. It turns out that when you invest in equality measures, i.e. you build an organisational culture that gives a sense of security and respect and counteracts inequality (of various kinds: gender, age, origin, sexual orientation, etc.)’ When the message is sent to employees that ‘you are important and who you are is OK and you can count on the same career path’, this translates into a number of benefits. For example, greater trust in the organisation, lower employee turnover... as well as greater efficiency and commitment. As a result, everyone works more comfortably. So it is naive and short-sighted not to invest in equality in the workplace.

- And what benefits does equality bring to the scientific community?

NK-B: - There is a growing body of research showing that if you have diverse, ‘equality-oriented’ teams, these teams publish more, win more patents, are more innovative, obtain more grants, and their publications are cited more often - so...

- So an equality policy, not excluding anyone, can pay off?

NK-B: Yes, but the way in which such a policy is implemented is important. It is not enough to establish quotas or a provision introducing a certain number of women into power. The educational component is extremely important. That is why, as part of our gender equality plan, we are launching excellent online training courses for the academic community, which are designed to equip us with knowledge and sensitivity about what unequal behaviour is, how to counter it, how to build a safe and inclusive work environment - and what benefits it brings. This is a major development component for an institution like the UG - but we are prepared for it. Let's just all work together to train and educate ourselves so that we can implement this equality policy meaningfully, comfortably and as effectively as possible.

MŻ: - Equality will only work if change occurs at all these levels: at the individual level - that I want to develop; at the level of the team I lead - and at the level of the institution.

- So this equality education is not just about equality, but serves the development of the institution or science?

NK-B: - And also to develop management skills. It is not easy to manage diverse groups or teams. The ability to manage in an equal way and to build a healthy working atmosphere benefits everyone. That is also our goal. The gender equality plan aims to build the skills (in us as an academic community) to know what to do to work comfortably and safely and to support each other.

MŻ: - This is part of the human resources development strategy: looking at the skills needed for good cooperation.

NK-B: - Last year, we conducted a survey on how the University of Gdańsk is perceived as an institution that supports equality and counteracts discrimination. We wanted to find out if the academic community is aware that the University of Gdańsk has a gender equality plan. About half of the respondents answered in the affirmative, which is quite a good result considering how recently we formalised our activities. The proportion of women in management positions is also increasing. Our training and mentoring programmes have been recognised, as reflected in the EU Award for Gender Equality Champions, which the University of Gdańsk received from the European Commission. So I feel that these things are not only happening, but that our community is also ready for them and appreciates them.

MŻ: - The sense of belonging and identification with our university is also becoming more and more visible. This is also the result of the equation: if I can be myself, feel good and care about what I do, then the sense of belonging and the willingness to act for the benefit of the wider community grows.

- What would you wish for women and what for men?

NK-B: - Can I combine them? I would like us to have more conversations and more dialogue, to share our perspectives and to tell each other what it is like to be a woman or a man in our society, what our gender does to us and whether we want it to. But this conversation should be conducted in a spirit of solidarity so that we can work together to determine what our relationships should look like and whether we need to take stereotypical norms and expectations into account in them or whether we can take a gender perspective and look at each other a little more humanely. We need more intersexual empathy.

MŻ: - I will refer a little to stereotypes, which are still present in society in some way. I would like to wish women, girls and people who identify as women confidence in themselves: not to be afraid to speak up. In turn, I would like to wish men, boys and people who identify as men confidence so that they are not afraid to listen sometimes. These are steps towards empathy and conversation.

- Thank you for the interview!